Curse

Dzjudz · Dec 24, 2010, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Just because you call it an exploit a 1000 times does not make it so.

- Go into UW
- Get bonded
- Round up all Aatxes in the main area and ball them in a spot
- Have a necro SS them to death in seconds

How is this different?

- You are disturbing their 'pre-programmed' pathing by pulling them to places they would not go by themselves: check
- You are using certain professions because they are better equipped with more efficient skills: check

This is a regular tank and spank tactic. It's not an exploit just because you are using advantageous professions and using predictable AI mechanics to kill more efficiently and faster. You could probably use a full party of dervishes and kill them group by group (bodypulling as you call it), but it would be much slower / suboptimal.

Once again: pulling many foes together outside their 'pre-programmed' pathing and then using aoe to quickly kill them is an extremely general tactic in GW.

Using optimal professions and builds for such tactics is a logical step.

P.S. I see you completely disregarded my request for clarification of the need for a developer comment on the 'legality' of spawn-camping in SD.

Master Fuhon · Dec 24, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

I'm not just calling it something. I've already given evidence and recieved only 'denial' in response. I couldn't possibly appease demands that I convince people who are actively ignoring every point of evidence. I wish I had the time and this had the structure to do it like people do on Guild Wars wiki, where every word can be a link to evidence. But maybe Bold weaved into a post works...

It's obvious you've never done Snowball Dominance without putting a character in an Ice Fort in the aggro radius of the mobs that recently turn hostile. You wouldn't be using a pulling/tanking analogy and talking about how their pre-programmed pathing is just like tanking. They aggro individually by you being in range of each one. Mobs you can tank aggro in a group if you try to pull one and don't have an inactive phase of several seconds after you can get in range of them (Vizunah afflicted mobs that spawn are inactive much shorter, don't have a crucial skill to waste). I only talked about how the exploit is disruptive to the pre-programmed pathing and programming of these particular mobs since they are not linked well and will all use Ice Fort at once because of this. I need not say more on this when I can point out the fact that anyone with Guild Wars installed can watch how the SD mobs are different instead of having to be convinced.

I'd also refer you to actually look at real world sources of what the word exploit means, but the wikipedia definition for Exploit (online gaming) is both wrong and vague to anyone who can't think critically. It's wrong when it says in the first sentence "not intended by the game's designers", as I've given the football game as a reference. I guess since I'm only calling things exploits, I don't have any evidence of exploits put into games. The game wouldn't happen to be Madden 1997, with a play in the Shotgun formation, called Double Flags. There also isn't something in Final Fantasy 8 related to getting infinite money through buying 100 Cottages, turning them into 50 Mega-Potions with Recovery-Med RF, and selling them after acquiring the Haggle ability on GF Tonberry. According to wiki, these were put in by accident, if they happened to be there. But if they did happen to be in those two games, they would get called exploits, because you still have to do something for success; if they were cheats you would just get touchdowns and Gil (money) without doing anything related to game mechanics in place.

And wiki is vague when it decides only to list the most common exploits, instead of pointing out every way people exploit online games. This is a good thing. It isn't necessary to broadcast every exploit in every game that may need to be fixed. But I guess people can also not think critically, and say "Since the wiki doesn't call it an exploit in plain language, it can't be one. Since a-net embraced it, it's not still classified as an exploit".

But you do realize, that out in the world, people complain about things like 'flat earth theories', and these actual theories don't just deny that the earth is round, but they make points about why they think something is the way they claim it is. This means that the burden of proof cannot always be shifted on the other side, and you aren't convincing when people don't stop putting words in the other person's mouth and changing the subject away from evidence.

P.S. I read your post script. Are you saying I haven't pointed out why there is a need to clarify that easy money quests are not exploits? There is a need, because people who want to follow rules and not exploit bugs need to know. The evidence I continue to list about how there are legal and illegal exploits confirms this; one group of exploits you get banned for and the other you don't.

Dzjudz · Dec 24, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

My post script was in relation to your use of past tense: "confirmation was needed from developers", implying that this confirmation had been sought and given (or not). But now you use present tense and saying there is a need (arguable), implying such confirmation has not been actively sought and in any case not given.

It seems your definition of exploit includes all advantageous uses of the predictability of enemy AI. It seems you think that the only way to play in GW as 'intended by the game's designers' is to use body pull techniques and not manipulate aggro in any other way.

And yes, I have indeed played SD using the technique you advocate, and found it to be tedious and slow. It is only natural to find a way to speed things up and make them easier.

I don't really understand your comment about FE'ers.

BrettM · Dec 24, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

Mobs you can tank aggro in a group if you try to pull one and don't have an inactive phase of several seconds after you can get in range of them

Greves and Enforcers outside ToA or the Peacekeeper roadblocks (WiK). Mantle waiting for Hayda to lead you to them (EotN). Corsairs who have kidnapped Koss's sister (Nightfall). Jade Brotherhood surrounding Aiko in Bukdek Byway (Factions). Etc.

There are a number of times throughout GW when you face enemies that are not hostile for an extended period of time. Anyone with a lick of sense uses that time to position their team for maximum advantage when the foes do turn hostile, possibly including the tactic of placing a tank or spirits in the middle to take the first aggro and get the foes to waste their best spells and attacks.

LifeInfusion · Dec 24, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

My take on SD is this: I got 3-4 minutes using normal gameplay + Rit or Ranger hero. I got 1-2 minutes using a necro hero.

Is there any reason not to? I mean the official wiki even has the technique listed. It's not like it is something so obscure.

Unlike farming UW, this has guaranteed drops that aren't worth very much on their own so I just did this to max vanguard. Wintersday gifts are about 25-30k a stack, tonics go for about 10k-25k.

Veldan · Dec 24, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

As said before, if you call this farm an exploit, you might as well call every farm in the game an exploit. UW farming? You can't possibly solo/duo the mobs there if you fight 'normally' . Speedclears? you exploit the 'dumbness' of the mobs, who will keep attacking / trying to cast spells on your invincible SF sins, and ball around them on top of that. SoS rit? You exploit the fact that mobs are dumb enough to attack the spirits, and not the person that summons them. Etc. Making them 'illegal' could kill GW.

A11Eur0 · Dec 24, 2010, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Guilt, mistrust, shame, diversion...anything that triggers when an enemy uses a skill is "exploited" when that AI enemy repeatedly uses skills. I guess I should be banned for exploiting enemy AI on my mesmer and necro.

Master Fuhon · Dec 24, 2010, 10:55 PM // 22:55

The other posts are so full of generalization and lack of understanding that the argument is going to be circular since everything I say is getting ignored and no one is presenting another side (random things are being attributed to me too). This is the only one worth responding to right now, because it says something:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Greves and Enforcers outside ToA or the Peacekeeper roadblocks (WiK). Mantle waiting for Hayda to lead you to them (EotN). Corsairs who have kidnapped Koss's sister (Nightfall). Jade Brotherhood surrounding Aiko in Bukdek Byway (Factions). Etc.

There are a number of times throughout GW when you face enemies that are not hostile for an extended period of time. Anyone with a lick of sense uses that time to position their team for maximum advantage when the foes do turn hostile, possibly including the tactic of placing a tank or spirits in the middle to take the first aggro and get the foes to waste their best spells and attacks.

You shouldn't have pulled that quote out of context though. I mentioned 3 things in the post you quoted from, and it's important to consider that all 3 things confirm this as a designed 'exploit'.
1) Unlinked party members which causes skill usage failure
2) Inactive phase/spawn where you can position (they don't do anything for a moment after turning red in SD)
3) Pre-programmed pathing, not set to roam/wander, but having a default path that gives them a combat advantage if you don't disrupt it
Holiday Blues was also buffed, why did the original do what it did? I also alluded to the fact that this is an economic exploit like many single player games have (money/title farm exploit), since GW is almost a solo game by now. Newer players are going to want to get things done in maybe 6 months to a year so they aren't behind when GW2 comes out. Older players almost all want 50/50 HoM.

Review your examples, but realize it really makes a game unfun to think about in this way. I'm not wanting people to seek out AI flaws other than to consider fixing and to prevent 'real' mistakes, but:
WiK Peacekeepers: linked, they don't drop much, and don't path when you ignore them.
Mantle in the Hayda quest, linked and not repeatable for massive reward, they path, but the pathing achieves no strategic advantage for them in taking down your group like the SD quest foes
Can't remember the Koss quest: probably linked and not repeatable at least
Aiko quest: linked and not repeatable, trying to remember when I did this quest, I remember them using skills very quickly after it started, not a long inactive phase while red where you can use 3 skills before they hit you, never saw if they path

By not repeatable, I am refering to not repeatable on a single character. When a quest is designed to be done multiple times, randomizing spawn patterns matters more in preventing exploits (if you want to prevent them). But alot of things involve mobs linked in smaller groups to make them easier. In UW, Mindblade Spectres pop as inactives so they don't gank solo farmers and new groups, but anyone knows, Underworld is blatantly designed for exploiting and not playing through with balanced groups. Anyone saying the Underworld has ever been balanced consistently with the rest of the game is lying.

BoondockSaint · Dec 24, 2010, 11:18 PM // 23:18

In my experience the 3 different ways you can do this with the Ranger/Necro combo break down as such.

1. Ranger main/ Necro Hero:

Pros:

Can be done by yourself.
Can achieve the fastest overall time because you can port after you finish, collect the reward, and move to another dist. with no down time.

Cons:

Boring! But minimum micro allows for you to talk with friends, chat on the phone ect.

Requires some micro and even still the Necro will sometimes run out of his ice-fort. What has helped me is casting holiday blues, lock on to the Vanguard directly behind the Necro and he will generally stay in the fort and get a couple of shots off before he dies.

For those who do not know already you must disable skills 2 and 6, you may also want to disable 7 and 8 if you want to micro them personally.

2. Ranger Main/ Necro Duel account.

Pros:

Achieves the most overall gifts!
Can be done by yourself for maximum profit.
No potential mistakes from friends, or heroes, just yourself!

Cons:

Most micro intensive of the 3 ways, but really not the bad.

The repetitiveness can get extremely boring and requires more effort and concentration then with a hero.

Slowest as far as rinse and repeat is concerned, but this is made up for the fact that you get twice as much gifts.

Need a second account.

3. Ranger or Necro with another Player:

Pros:

Usually the fastest as far as clearing is concerned.
Have someone to chat to, can be the least boring route.
Virtually no micro, once the Necro and Ranger know where to stand and the timing runs can be done with no effort.

Cons:

Rinse and repeat only slightly faster then dueling it with a second account but you only get half the rewards.

While mistakes can be kept to a minimum for the quest, often times lag or what not can lead to people not accepting the quests on time, porting to early, ect.

Again this is just from my experience, the duel account is the fastest way to get presents, but I prefer to do it with a friend so that I have someone to chat with!

Anyways, 3k more sweet tooth and party points left to farm and Christmas is almost here!

A11Eur0 · Dec 25, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

snip

Wait, so you're claiming that Anet purposefully made this quest "exploitable", just like UW?

UW was designed the way it was to avoid making things impossibly hard for the skillsets players had available at the time. Resourceful people found builds that allowed these areas to be exploited with only proph skills, and these builds were quickly nerfed. Prot bond, introduction of dying nightmares...etc. 55'ing went from solo to duo teams. Changes in pathing also made trapping more difficult, and trapping just didn't work outside the labyrinth. Over time as power creep set in with Factions and NF skills, it became exploited more and more. eventually, it became so exploited that it harmed the economy, and they completely overhauled the area. Now it can't really be solo farmed to the extent that it was. Yeah there are still farms, and it can still be "speed cleared", but not in 10 minutes or less. Don't sit there and tell me they engineered these things to be exploited.

Snowball dominance has zero bearing on the economy. There are no drops during the quest, and presents simply help people with their titles. Nobody used wintersday gifts as currency for other items. yeah it's an exploit, but who gives a damn? And honestly thinking that it was planned down to the very last detail to be farmed with a ranger/necro team and to be quite difficult for most others is just ludicrous. Might I suggest you do yourself a favor and turn your computer off, step outside, and enjoy the fresh air?

helloeveryone · Dec 26, 2010, 10:42 AM // 10:42

this is a good implementation.
i can finally max my party animal buying Mischievous/Snowman tonic at 10k a stack and that means 20g per party point! took a while to buy @ 10k a stack but there will be people willing to sell. normal price is around 20k though.

eventhough i have to zoom and click for a lot of time but at least i don't have to break my bank......